Raising money through KickStarter - how and who should do it? By Zach Cohen.

And today's a guest speaker, we have Zach Cohen currently, the director of business development at face investments LLC and previously the founder of a successful lifestyle Brent Zach raised his 1st, money on Kickstarter.

And today we'll talk about reward based crowdfunding and who should actually tried to pursue it. And also we'll talk about raising his standards VC slash angel.

Fund, I mean, not at funds around. So Zach, unless you get out by, you giving us some background on yourself and on face investments.

Hi, yeah, thanks. Obviously for, you know, going through my story so yeah, so this.

Hey, step private equity fund on the manage over about a 1000 rooms, anything from lifestyle to your just your basic stay best question and things like that as well as sort of venture deals.

And, yeah, I just, I did that. I've been doing that for about 2 years or so. And I, when I exit the clothing company, sort of what I've been doing since then.

Got it that was a really quick background. Can you? Let's start. Actually, it was 30. let's go a little bit deeper into that a lifestyle brand, and we'll start with that exit and then we'll move on to talk about a reward based a crowd.

Fine. So, we started, so 1st question is, let's talk a little more about that lifestyle brand. What do you do? What's special about it?

Yeah, so when I started the brand, I was actually working for an ad agency at the time and.

When I sort of saw that sort of, there's an opportunity presenting itself because we were shooting, you know, 1M dollar 2M dollar commercials and they weren't really using.

Any of the excess film, you know, we were shooting 32nd commercial 62nd commercials, you know, 10122nd commercials and they would just run those but we'd have, you know, a couple hours of footage and that's just kind of like YouTube was just beginning to be a thing. So.

When things started to really pick up, sort of, with you to sort of pitching like, hey, we should start leveraging this video content to sort of build brands and sort of like capture new sort of tapping to new markets.

But, you know, the people people in that industry weren't really interested, because there's a lot of traditional film. You know, some of the commercials were still getting shot on physical film at the time. So, to give you a little bit of an idea of what was going on at the time, and, um.

I saw this opportunity, like, hey, like, people are building a new brand.

Shooting know what their timeline was just like, basically, you know, video cameras and things like that. And they were building real brands and they weren't really interested in exploring the opportunity.

Because they're just saying, you know, TV was the loudest, loudest megaphone from that from the tallest mountain and we're gonna mess around with.

You know, smaller things like, you know, obviously now it makes more sense, but.

I sort of said, okay, well, I think that I have the tools and sort of the experience to sort of put together some video content to pump, like an apparel brand because it sounded like, you know, a lot of people aren't stars.

We're starting these brands and there's a company called, um, I forgot what they're called. They did,

like, you know, it was like a guaranteed squares like a lifetime sweater, and they raised a 1M bucks and it was like, it was like, oh, my God.

You know, this guy has some basic video, you know, he's just making a hoodie and he's like launching this and, you know, got a lot of traction with a 1M bucks. You know, you're putting probably.

250 to 500000 dollars that in your pocket I was like, well, like, that sounds like a lucrative thing. So why not start especially with, you know, there he didn't have to make any of the product before he actually started to sell it. You know, he just did samples and stuff.

I cannot claim to say I know everything about it, but, from my experience has really all you gotta do. So I went out, you know, create some samples. You know, I, I produced the parallel like, products, promo products and things like that in college and a lot of fun and not too hard.

So I was like, all right, let's go for it and just create some, you know.

Some basic basic stuff my grandfather was actually in the apparel business in the 19 forties up until about 1997. so, you know, my family was in the apparel business so we had sort of a history there.

And I thought, you know, like, how cool would it be to restart my family brand? Um, cone and sons um.

You know, like my dad has pictures and things like that of him, and the factory rolling out fabric and that was his job when he was a kid. So sort of between.

That story of my family brand and sort of diving back into the sort of legacy of that and working on some stuff that I thought was a great time and working with my friends to create the video content. We thought we had a real shot.

It launched and keeps our brand so when I decided to do that, did the research started together? And about a month later? Quit my job.

Quit my job just started working on.

Kickstarter project full time hired my friend out of college. She was sleeping on an air mattress to the time in my living room and just just like making samples and trying to put this brand together. Um, you know, writing all the content storyline, taking all the pictures.

And crafting everything, and, uh, we actually went on a tour of California, just really like, shooting all the photos, and just sort of tell that the story that we're going to tell, and we launched on Kickstarter.

And it was pretty incredible how fast it happened. You know, I've sold maybe 3000 dollars at a time of products, but, you know, it gets like, 5, 6000 dollars and people in Australia. You're like, whoa, this is intense.

So it took a couple of weeks, and, you know, obviously, even the beginning was fast, and then it slowed down and then we eventually hit our goal, which, like, 10 grand it's not like we're like, chilling.

But it's sort of like, okay, you know, like, you know, 10000 dollars a month, you know, there's a lot. So we sort of doubled down produced, doubled the amount we needed. Obviously we.

We, we produced as much as we needed for that to fulfill the kicks our order. Um, and.

Actually, double down on inventory, so we'd have some to sell after the fact but, you know, that manufacturing process you think, you know what you're getting into, but you just don't think it was a total disaster. It was, like, literally, probably the most insane.

And we weren't even doing anything crazy. Like, what we're trying to do is very simple, you know, we're

buying at the time, like, you know, basics and having them produced and printed. It wasn't like a big deal. They weren't developing fabrics and in doing insane cutting.

So jobs, it was like all kinds of intricate designs. It was like the most basic thing you could ever do.

And, you know, the, we get, you know, you give this guy, you know, that you promised, like, a decent order is probably 1 of his biggest orders the time.

Let you come back and then places turned into a total sweat shop, making license and license, like Laker stuff. So you're thinking oh, my God. And your stuff is not getting made in your whole life. Depends on the time on on this stuff right.

Saying saying you're like, oh, my God. So I'm going in there. And these guys are asking me if I'm checking in for my shift, because nobody knows who anybody is, because the company's growing so fast and it was just like, oh, my God. My stuff's never going to get made.

So we're freaking out, like, helping the people actually produce this stuff like like, you know, at night for a couple of days finally got the stuff out it was late and everything.

Like, you know, some of the stuff was made some of it wasn't weren't partially shipping stuff because I wasn't experienced and I'm.

Yeah, so let me just sort of got through that Kickstarter phase. Obviously a lot of people that have experience with Kickstarted know that that's sort of an intense process. Like you promised a lot of things, um, you know, depends on who you are.

Right but where I was, you know, promised a lot of things, unrealistic timelines, I'm not understanding the true shipping costs of things and actual packaging time.

Like,

you know,

like a couple 1000 units,

you think of,

like,

oh,

a couple 1000 units and it fills up your entire car and your entire apartment turns into a warehouse and you're selling your furniture you're selling your furniture you're putting in here.

I lived with my girlfriend at the time, and, you know, I'm telling her that I'm like, moving furniture out and I'm putting shelves and stuff in the apartment. You my buddy, er, just like packaging and folding all night. It's like, you know, till 4 in the morning.

Just slamming red balls and was told him nightmare or living on Kimberly jelly sandwiches from Costco. It was like a total nightmare, but a lot of fun. But.

You know that we did that while it was pretty intense.

Nice, I think, I think I just came up with the title for the episode selling furniture to sales to store stuff. That's just a great example of the startup world.

So, my next question is actually, you starts, you've looked into this kickstart thing as something very

optimistic something where you can make a lot of money. You mentioned that you saw a Kickstarter campaign that raised 1M dollars.

And you thought the guy had 250 or even 500 K into his own pockets, how to work out for you personally. So did all the money go into shaping developing all this products and so forth? Or do you actually make some profit?

Oh, like he didn't mean to make anything, so.

You know, but like, so the issue was that we wanted to capitalize on the economies of scale, right? So.

When we thought the product you want to run as much of, you want to run as much product as you can. Right?

Okay, if we sold 10000 dollars for the stuff, I probably made about.

I probably would have had, like, maybe because we were inefficient, probably about 4500 bucks in profit. So we just plow that 4500 dollars back into, like.

Inventory right so we just pretty much spent all the money we got because, you know, obviously I had some savings and we just wanted to.

Pump up on inventory right now. Obviously, that was the wrong move, I think, because we probably should just sold through all the inventory saw with the customers sort of actually wanted and things like that and yeah, because we bought into a lot of different colors that we didn't need to buy into that.

I had for, like, 4 years later, but, you know, the answer was no, like, it could have we could have made some money, but we just reinvested all of it like right away.

Sure, I did got it so.

Now, let's talk about recommendations on to start specifically who should actually choose this reward base of fundraising. So who do you believe.

Is the best audience basically to go on kickstart to go on on platforms? Like, can you go go? I don't know. So much about, you know, I like, I know about indigo and things like that. But I think Kickstarted was just sort of mainstream at the time.

When we launched, it was just sort of that hot, new thing. So, when you said that we're launching on Kickstarted, kind of had a buzz to it, you know, but I do recommend that that strategy because.

When you launch on Kickstarter, it's like, saying, it's like, because.

You can plan and plan and planning plan. Like, you can go out and you can plan your product and you can problem solve this. And and, you know, we.

You could do a 1M things. Like, you could spend your whole life planning. But the reality is when you hit a kickstart, a new push, go, you're actually saying who's willing to reach into their pocket and actually spend money you know like, what are you actually going to sell?

Like, you you talk to your friends and your friends or family or whatever.

But if you can't set, you know, it's the reality of like, people, you don't know reaching into.

Need to buy your product right? And then the questions they have and the concerns they have what you think, you know, what they're going to ask, but everything is like all over the place. Right? So you

don't really know what's going to happen until you actually bring the product to market. So Kickstarter is a good way to do that with the lowest amount of investment you can. So.

Kind of what I'm saying is you would think right? Like, oh, my God I need to, like, build my website and need to build on my stuff. My brand all that stuff. I need to get my stuff to influencers and all that stuff and produce a bunch of inventory right to sell.

Because obviously, if you, if you've launched E, commerce site, you need inventory to sell kind of. But.

You know, do you think about, like, books, like, you know, 24 hour, work week, or whatever? Whatever number is they say, like, you know, you should just launch the website and.

Oh, sorry you just launched the website and then see if people actually buy stuff. Um.

And then just sort of write it off because it's they're 7 hour work week. Great. Whatever, anyway but is a good.

Um, it's a great indicator. It's like who's actually gonna buy this? What are they actually gonna buy before you actually produce it? Because if you're Super knee deep in purple T, shirts you're gonna be like, oh, my God. I should've made any purple t shirts.

Um, but you'll know you showed the white ones, so, like, when you actually go to make the stuff, you just buy a bunch of white shirts and you don't make any purple stuff. Right? So.

It just allows you to sort of actually test the waters, especially with Kickstarter with a customers that are willing to wait they're willing to wait for your product. They're willing to work with you and say oh, my God.

I didn't know that shipping was like, 3 times more expensive than I thought they're actually willing to hear you out when now with Amazon and things like that. Like, when it doesn't show up in 2 days, like, Yo, Where's my stuff?

And you're sitting there in a factory floor, trying to figure out how you're going to get something from Columbia to L. A. and you're like.

That takes, you know, like, 3 weeks, at least, you know, you're saying a 1000 dollars data here, but it's like.

It get, it allows you to sort of work out a lot of the bugs.

Early on with the test market, that's like, more receptive to you before you actually spend a ton of money on inventory, which is like, how you die.

Right, right that's actually that's very true. And that's great. So now we'll talk about scaling, so it seemed like you had some issues with doing an old by yourself, figuring out the whole chain.

But then you mentioned that you ran into some problems with actually scale and this business, after they started campaign was over. So the question is, how did you solve the problem with scaling it?

Um.

You pretty much what happens is like, in the beginning you have, I think, because we did it with Kickstarter right? We made a lot of inventory so we had, like, a month or so of sort of just trailing sales. Like, people would like, get a shirt or something, and they liked it.

So they'd buy, like, another 1 they told their friends or something. So that kind of work, and we are able

because of, like, for example, because of how we're producing the product, we are able to just.

Sort of keep going with smaller batches because we, you know, we paid for all the screens and, like, we had like, a good deal with an embroider and things like that. So we were able to like, print and produce new.

New product pretty quickly with a short lead time, but, like, you can't really scale that business right? Like, we needed to create more designs, create more stuff.

Um, and sort of really buy more product and, like, run ads and things like that to actually scale the business.

Um, you know, obviously there's a lot of different ways to scale business and especially in a pal brand, but that was sort of the way that we saw it and especially, like, produce more content to sort of drive more sales.

Or whatever, so, that was an issue like, we didn't have, we were running out of money, because obviously I was, you know, just paying with my own money or doing, like, you know, the, the, all the all famous credit card round funding right?

So, like, you're just like, running up credit cards to buy inventory having the inventory sit and then, you know, cause obviously you think it's gonna turn, like, pretty quick but it ends up sitting for a lot longer. So you're not able to, like, you know, process.

You know, manage your cash flow efficiently and things like that, because you're under funded. So it's and then you're paying guys that are helping you and it's just.

It's kind of a nightmare because you're sort of like you're strapped for cash you're trying to grow and keep up, but it's just it's hard to do.

You know, like, in plus you're like, not like living like a normal human, being cause you're like, shipping orders all night and then you're like, trying to, like, push the business along during the day.

Um, so it's really like kind of hard and not really sustainable.

To to do that in a cash flow perspective or and, like, sort of a life perspective. So that's sort of that was like, kind of an issue.

So, speaking of growing and scaling your business, our printer, your call, you mentioned that you try to raise some money from PCs and angels after that takes our campaign for prior to the campaign. But it didn't really work out.

So when was the moment, when he realized that it doesn't really work so.

We create all these different pitches, right? Because, like, you know, I pitch for a living. So the pitches look like normal pitches. Like, we had the Internet, like, you know, all the information that I could provide in a normal way. And we are going to sort of, you know, different types of vc's that were sort of in network.

Right? So these were people that we knew that were professional vc's. Um, and.
But the issue was like, when you go to the table as a new business, especially in, like. A consumer brand.

You go to these guys and you say, okay, I have this new business and you're like, how much money have you made you know, like 10000 dollars and they're like.

Sweet, you have a really cool hobby like, How's that going? And you're like, it's going great, but it's not going great. It's going horribly.

You're like, you're like, shipping stuff out of your house and, like your girlfriend screaming at you and you have no idea what your life is going to be like, you know, they're like, what's your projector projected cash flow?

Like, where you're gonna be in this year and that year, and, like, in 5 years and what's your exit? Like what's my investment? How much money you actually need? And the answer is you have no idea.

You had never done this before so you go to these tables in these rooms and they're like, okay cool. How much money do you need? Like, I think I need 100000 dollars and they look at you or 200 or 30500. you're like, and they're saying you're going to burn through 500000 dollars in.

7 months or a year, right?

It add a normal capacity and based on inventory maybe you hire a couple people, um, and just normal business stuff. You'd be amazed at how fast cash just evaporates.

I mean, but so we go to the table and these guys, they just sort of ask you a lot of questions that you don't necessarily know the answers to. And 1 of the big questions that I realized was like, who's going to be.

And, you know, tracking all these, you know, all the finances and doing everything and you're like.

Me right, and there's like, how much accounting knowledge? It's like well, I went to college for accounting, but it's not to major in it, but I took a couple of counting glasses and it's like, well.

Me, and I'm like, alright, so you're not exactly like a CFA. So the idea of you being able to project any kind of anything are low so you sort of, you know, they're like just call, em.

The, the sort of catch phrase that would be really funny that when everyone always say random is like, when you make a 1M dollars call me.

So, if you don't make a 1M dollars, there's nothing to talk about. Like, if you can't bootstrap yourself.

To a 1M bucks we have nothing to talk about. So you should just be able to run by the senior pants to get a 1M dollars of sales. And then when you have a 1M dollars in sales, that's when you can make like, 50000 dollars a year.

As a person, so you're like, okay sick, I'll call you then, you know, and that's sort of how those meetings usually ended. Yeah, yeah. That's very true. Actually.

So, now, after you mentioned another thing after the after you realized that we season angels are not really good option for you, you've reached out to bunch of big brands and some of them actually worked with you.

So, how do you actually managed to reach out to those brands how you managed to get their attention.

So,
the well,
the reality was like,

for example,

like,

and other other brands are we collaborated with that was 1,

that sort of gave us motorcycles to ride within paid for us to,

like,

go travel and shoot photos and use us on their platforms.

Like, that was quite the closest collaboration and then we worked with different magazines.

That the reason the way that we were able to get their attention was.

Through like our, our video and photo content, because everyone is starved for content, especially then.

Um, so we were just producing the content, right? So, we're like, hey, we'll go out and we'll shoot. Um.

You know, the photos and things like that with our clothes, but we'll incorporate your brand. Right? Like, we'll incorporate, you know, your BMW or your triumph motorcycle or you decanio or your magazine or your other clothing brand thing right? Like, so whoever was bigger than us.

We would always try to collaborate with them and we would, I would, I would shoot all the content because obviously I was the cheapest photographer I knew and we would get my friends as models and we'd go and we would do that.

And that sort of how we sort of Hopscotch and end up doing stuff with, like, redwing boots and things like that.

And that's sort of how we got, where we we got in terms of a brand, like, collaborating with big brands is just because we provide the content we told the story and then their associate association with us made them more authentic.

Because we were this, you know, homegrown heritage brand with this guy that started a clothing company out of his department. Um, that was trying to rebuild his grandfather's, um, sort of apparel brand.

Got it got it, so.

That's extra and congrats. Congrats on the connection there with the big brands. That's that's really cool. So, let's move on and talk about.

Fundraising Jen now it's 1 reason radio. We talked about fundraising a lot so you eventually actually raise money. Uh.

For your company, but not from vc's or angels, but from 1 specific expert in the field. So how did that happen? And, uh.

Do you think that was the right move? Yeah, I think that everyone sort of as a small company thinks that there's this 1 moment where you get this someone writes your check for a 1M bucks, or someone writes you a check for 500000 dollars. I'm like yeah.

Go for it, buddy, I believe in you and that happens. You know what I mean? That happens to some people like, for me, that was just not not in the cards. So, you know, cause cause I mentioned a lot of

the control, right?

Like, they don't have a lot of control they don't really understand the business, you know, because a lot of these VC guys, like, maybe they do understand the business, they know how crazy you are.

So, it's more of like, just sort of finding some that understands the business, and actually can control. The situation and sort of lets you do so the thing that they don't know how to do, or.

In this case was like, build a lifestyle brand that was authentic, right that people could get behind and was real tangible. So, because, you know, I'm making this stuff is not new right?

Like, it's not like, we were pioneering technology that it was like, people just didn't understand. So no, 1 else could do it was just like.

You're making a bunch of T shirts, man, like, you're making T shirts or making genes and making stuff everybody make stuff. It's just whoever's logos on it. And, like, you know, there's some other little things here and there.

But the reality is, you're making stuff and you gotta make people, like, whoever you can, you know, whatever brand can get people's attention like.

If you can get the orders, we can make this stuff. So pretty much what we end up doing is I finally got, like, you know, in a room with this giant data manufacturer. Actually, 1 of the biggest ones in the world and.

The guy was self built, such such a great, super smart story. This guy like, came that, you know, came to America with, like, 3 fabric, role roles and built this empire, you know, and it was just like, you know, this guy.

You know, this guy's some incredible guy, and he's sort of throwing me a rope. He's saying, like, you know, you want to work hard. You're obviously Super dedicated to the cause.

You know, you have some sort of talent and you've created something here. Um.

I can sit here and ask you a 1M questions about how much you're think you're going to make and all this stuff. But because I have experience in the business. I know that you're kind of like blowing smoke and you have no idea what you're talking about. And you're just going to try really hard, you know, and it's just like.

And and then he's like, okay, well, I, I haven't been able to successfully create a lifestyle brand in this category that I think is growing. Um, you're obviously getting some sort of traction and you're doing a lot of things that are.

Are new that I don't necessarily do with my brands.

Um, and teach surgical flyer and said, hey, you can.

Use our facility like, you could use all of our pattern makers.

You can use all use our, our fabrics and our, our watch facility and our die houses and our designers and pretty much like everything that you can't afford like right like, millions of dollars of talent.

And sort of access, I was able to get sort of overnight and.
It was just all through, sort of then taking a flyer and saying, like, hey, it's, you know.

Let me pull you into my ecosystem, I'll give you the tools.

I'll tell you how a real apparel brand is built and then you can just focus on doing what you sort of, the things that, you know, how to do really well, which is create the lifestyle brand, create really cool product ideas.

And actually,
we'll just infuse whatever knowledge that we can,
which is like,
performance,
fabrics,
design,
expertise and sort of what bigger manufacturers need from you and then also provide back house, like,
accounting,
cash flow,
support inventory.
Warehousing shipping,
like,
you know,
all the stuff that,
you know,
I could struggled with forever and could never do,
like,
well,
like,
they just for,
like,
I was like,
a small little fish now like,
so,
like,

oh,

you need to ship like,

10200 orders at a time or 5,

pallets it's like,

yeah,

we do that every single day like,

just whatever.

All right, so now, let's talk about the happy ending of that company, which was an exit. How did it happened?

So, the way that it sort of worked is we kept going, like, we sort of built the brand sort of under their wing for 2 years, and we just kept growing and growing and pitching. You know, we started to start pitching.

Larger larger companies, like Stitch fix and, you know, we, I think we're talking about Huck Berry and other, like, bigger, like, larger accounts that we would have had that were sort of push us in the next level like Neiman Marcus. Um, and that was sort of pushing us to the next level.

Um, but the issue was that.

As you start to grow, like, to that level, I say, you get a 500000 dollars order from Nordstrom, you need 250000 dollars of cash to hard cash. Actually produce those garments. And if they don't sell, they can return them.

So that's like a huge risk, right? So we are getting these larger orders and, like, we were in lots of stores, but the, because we had started shifted mostly to the wholesale model, because that sort of fit what they knew how to do.

But by the end of the day, it's like, yeah, we need to double down and give you another 500000 dollars and another year of salaries to keep going because you have to sell almost seasons in advance.

So, if you get, like, say, a fall 2020, I'm like producing that in 2019 and I got to keep you on salary for 6 months, and keep my designer on salary for 6 months, and keep producing spring.

Because if fall hits, you need to be ready for spring. So it's like, you're investing in, like, multiple years at a time. Right? So.

What end up happening is they just sort of.

The way that it worked, is it just they, we didn't.

Have enough traction to get that double down investment. So we ended up doing is sort of.

Almost splitting our different ways. It's pretty much like yeah, Zach, you take the brand and he just sort of said, hey, like, you know, a good try. So.

That was sort of how the exit actually went down, is it just sort of it sort of just stopped because we needed way more cash and it was like a situation.

God, that was not such a happy, as I thought, but still still good. So, here, we're moving on to a more more current situation. So, Zach, what do you do now?

Do do any angel investments a mentoring of earlier stage startups or what would you spend most of your time on.

So when we so when I left, I sort of worked on their like, their women's brand, so, like, it's not like, they took the door and they kicked me out, um, we started working on their women's brand. I'm working the marketing aspect of that. And then I searched.

Saw the opportunity to sort of shift and then I worked now, I.

Which I shifted to this investments, which was the hospitality fund, and within in Vista, I sort of focused on just finding distressed assets and working on current business, like current hotels that they will have in their existing portfolio.

And.
Sort of saying, like, okay, here's the hotel for example. I have 1 of her,
most of each called the C sprite and it's like,
saying,

how can you take a distressed hotel branded perfectly and obviously working with operations teams to sort of bring sort of a brand experience to the hotel to drive the rates and to sort of build a sort of lifetime experience to that hotel and sort of,

obviously to push the rates and things like that.

So I did that for 2 years started different businesses within the hotels. We started a couple of restaurants and bar programs and all kinds of stuff.

So it's like, taking a lot of what I learned from the clothing business in terms of the branding and advertising actually driving it to sort of actual physical space, which is hard to do.

Because there's all these operational issues that you have to overcome to actually say, like,
I have a really cool idea,

and then drive that into actually going through and having managers actually implement different processes and things like that to create the experience you want and right now I'm actually diving back into the entrepreneur pool and starting a

new business sort of capitalize on sort of what's been going on with coven and people sort of moving into more suburban areas and combining sort of a single family experience,

single family,
home rental and sort of bring your 4 star hotel experience to a single family home.

Got it that's really interesting and definitely keep me updated the progress there. And here, we're moving on to last question of today's episode. So, Zach, what's your.

Call to action so what is the thing that you want to listen to do? As soon as the app is over?
I think when it really comes down to any business, I think that everyone, you know, in a lot of the.

Sort of entrepreneurial blogs and things you read is like, these people that sort of, like, make the leap, right? Like, you quit your job and you just go for it. Right? And I think that.

I think that is a little bit hardcore and I think that, at some point you do make that jump but I think that.

What you do is you try to get a lot of the initial traction while you still have a job, or like an income source. Right? So, I think that.

Going slowly, sort of making these jumps, like, over time, like, you know, sort of when your business is, like, actually cranky to the point. I was like cool. Like, this can actually support me and, like, I do have product market fit and it is a business right?

It's generating cash and it's like, working obviously, in sort of tech industries. It's different, but I'm really talking to what I have experienced.

You should go slow, let it get as much traction as possible when we really think it's going to grab. And then when it really comes to the point where it's like, man, this is actually going to go. Then you make the job, quit your job and sort of start going, because it's not sound familiar.

And a lot of the ambiguity about what's going to happen is is gone. And I think that what you'll realize during that sort of waiting period is it'll take a lot longer than you think. So, it's sort of allows you to avoid that. Oh, my God.

I started to soon English sort of run out of gas before you sort of get where you need to go.

Right. That is 100%. Correct I do not support too many bold moves. Those can pay off of course, but not always so definitely definitely be careful. Great advice here and.

My quotations can be check out the description of this episodes I'll leave a few links mentioned in the episode. So if you're curious to read more to hear more, definitely take a look there and as usually have a good date.